Article for coolants magazine

My reply to the "coolant" e mail has generated a few replies to me personally and I thought that a summary of those queries/replies may be of help/interest. As always; if you don't want the ramblings - (or if I replied to you individually) ignore and my apologies................But there may be some info/promote discussion/raise points that may help some. Over here we (I think) suffer from the fact that MOST of the world "needs anti freeze" - so we get that as a consequence. The popular view/accepted is so overwhelmingly "Must have glycol" that I have been abused/called an idiot because "I am sure if almost EVERYONE uses it = must be ok..." If people have a "comfort zone" and have accepted "Glycol"; it is a brave manufacturer that will "try and re-educate" them for a small niche market - such as ours. It is far easier for them to say (eg, Toyota) "one anti freeze/anti boil that will work EVERYWHERE...in our range of vehicles." I want a pure anti corrosive, nothing else. THAT is my major concern. Long term is a "niche" thing - most keep a car for 5 years. And why that is so hard would appear to be the "globalisation" above. So many law suits/litigations................................... I suspect that it is far easier to get a huge company overseas to just do research, make a "blanket product that you can use anywhere = sell it here." The other argument for anti freeze is that "it is also anti boil". I don't even want that. I don't even NEED that. My car has a 13 lb cap. That increases the boiling point of normal water to 117 degrees C. Many may be sick of me quoting "On my cross Aust trips I drove in 48 degrees cruising at 120 - 130 kmh all day. Temp NEVER went over 95." - But it is an "extreme test bed", hence why I mention it. I DON'T need to increase the boiling point. To me the biggest thing is cooling system understanding/condition. It MUST be "full"; otherwise it can't build pressure. Pressure will exist in varying amounts throughout the cooling system from pump flow/restrictions. But that pressure IS NOT the pressure that determines coolant boiling point. The "base" pressure is built by heat increase/expansion/cap regulation. That can ONLY happen if there is minimal air space in the expansion tank. Excuse the suck eggs. Most know this. But sometimes when mentioned, people are "?????" so there are some who may not be aware. I have a pressure gauge on my car cooling system and have had for 20 years. When hot, I know the second something is amiss regarding pressure. Best thing I ever did. When they introduced the Holden Camira's here they immediately got a bad reputation as "couldn't handle the heat." EVERYONE reckoned they were "a heap of shit". They were a world car. They had to pass Japanese emission regs (extreme) - and to do that, the first models had a thermostat that opened at 100 deg C. Yes, 100 degrees. They also had (in mid 80's), an 18 pound cap; when other cars had a max of 13. So, Boils at over 120 degrees at 18 pound = no problem. Australians were used to cars that have 82 degree stat and 13 lb cap. Camira also had half the cooling system capacity of the cars around them. So if that car was HALF A LITRE DOWN in radiator level - and incorrect "antiboil" = it would boil before the thermostat could open. So TOTALLY ALIEN to what people were "used to." Those cars had a one year warranty. With many as soon as the warranty ran out, and factory service wasn't FULLY FILLING THEM/ensuring no air/correct coolant - so many of them boiled. My Mum had one. I put an 82 degree stat in it - perfect (because I couldn't be sure Mum would keep it "completely filled") - and the last "metering point" for the Bosch injection was at 70 deg C; so no "cold start injector/mixture" issues. Ok, her heater was warm instead of ultra hot. It's Australia = no problem. Earlier - the HQ Holden. 350 option. Read the factory manual. "Thermostat begins to open - 100 deg C" Yep. That engine was "directly crated from the US and fitted" to those cars. If the water wasn't COMPLETELY FULL - boiled. They had never ending drama - until they fitted a 82 stat. Find a factory HQ manual and see the spec for the original 350 option. The point is - cooling system understanding. It is a sum of all it's parts. I believe that 13lb is fine; works for me. Those who use higher (I have seen 22) - to me I then worry about extra hose pressure - each to their own. But the point is - that 22 lb cap can sit there all day - if not FULL (within normal expansion/contraction fill level) - it will make NO DIFFERENCE - it CAN'T. I can drive my Stag as long as I want as far as I want up to about 130 kmh (anything else would be irresponsible :-) ) in temps up to 50 deg C. And it will last far longer than I do in those temps, especially now that I am "old". So, at my age, over a 1,000 kms a day are out. But a 300 km hills drive is still a regular outing; normally when it is hot. But the key is finding a coolant/inhibitor (call it what you like) that will not only behave today - but preserve your car for the long term. This is a good discussion - and great feedback.

A Stag owner: Discussion is good and there is no reason for anybody to get upset . Just take in the info that suits . For sure Toyota would have researched the hell out of this subject and we have grown to expect the best from them . I just used a coolant for that article that had published data

Thanks for the info below mate, (SJE) much appreciated. This coolant thing has been happening over a 40 year period for me (so pre Stag) and there have been lots of things "become dim" as the 80's was when I got very militant about it. I am losing track who I have replied to, so if I double up - forgive me........... but there are some replies to some other questions below........ Public forums are hard, hence why I haven't discussed this stuff before. Some want to argue, complain, nitpick............ they are in the minority, but it does stop you wanting to "throw your hat into the ring" because then you are open to ridicule/personal hassle. Then I read an article about "Stag........ can't handle heat.... unreliable.......... can't go a long way..." And I think "Hang on, I use mine like a normal car, and it is ok, durable (if used within reason) and good fun. Maybe if people sift through all the stuff I write they can get SOMETHING that will help them use their car more/get more out of it". So why not. But yeah, I tried to aim for what people needed to know without getting too much "into it". Amongst the many things my trade had to cover; I found myself working at a Recompression chamber, and I learnt SO MUCH about metalurgy/corrosion, transfer mediums etc. But it is a double edged sword. Tell people something; they want to know "where did you get THAT from/what makes YOU qualified to........??" Tell them how you know/where you worked = "Oh, is all about him/grandstanding." Hard to do the right thing. So I appreciate people's courtesy. This article/back and forth is jogging my memory. I remember when I went through all this corrosion inhibitor stuff in the 80's - as what the makers said didn't make sense to me (ie, "Glycol is king"). But I went into what our ships (Navy) used in the diesel cooling systems. Now - here you have a diesel engine that has iron, alloy, brass, etc etc and made with 60's/70's technology - IN ENGLAND. Similar to a Stag? Except has to be far more dependable. I figured what they use in a multi million dollar huge diesel where maintenance is far better than in a car should be the best. I ended up with a sodium based product that looked like yellow sugar, (came in a tin like a paint tin) and when dissolved in water, looked like ........ urine. I used that in my then Oz car; but not long enough for any long term result - but NO corrosion for the 7 years I had that car. My RCC mate is at sea at the moment. When he returns I will revisit with him; he is a genius. By coincidence (with me remembering the yellow sodium stuff) someone who has had far more professional experience with cars than me found a "coolant/medium" used in central heating systems for "long term corrosion protection" - and it is yellow. It could just be identifying dye - but it could be the aforemementioned sodium stuff? Unfortunately, the only way you know if a coolant ISN'T any good - is AFTER it eats your engine. No one is going to "chuck sodium in their engine" in case it eats it. But if you could find a similar coolant and get some background on it? Maybe an avenue to look at......... The quest continues........... Ken H Ahhh, coolants. Bane of my existence for many years. Many of the things I worked on at work "made their way" into what I used on my car. I had extensive experience with glycol at work in 1983 to 85 - and that made me not want to use it where I could help it based on what chemist/supplier info. We had an aircon system that was a "first in the world" type (recompression chamber) at the time it was the most advanced in the world and used many new technologies. The transfer medium (critical in a helium breathing environment) was 50/50 polished demineralised water/ethylene glycol. The system was entirely marine grade SS. So the base metals were nothing like what we use. But the point was - the foaming and cavitation were extreme if ANY air in the system. I decided that seeing we had "Glycol in 44 gallon drums" I would try it in my car (Ford cast iron V8 back then) in a "with water" mix. All it did was foam. I mentioned it to one of our chemist suppliers. He said it was the LAST thing I should do; as it was primarily an anti freeze, was actually mildly corrosive (!!!!) and it's "transfer index" was far less than water. So, Glycol........... Corrosive (in some conditions), foams, doesn't transfer as good as water. The point is................ the countries that make most of this stuff HAVE to look out for freezing; most of us don't. I am in Perth. Even if I drive all the way to Canberra one day - even then is unlikely that I will ever ever have my block freeze - so why should I use something that is "mostly Glycol" - I am more worried about anti corossion. I have found it so hard over the years to buy a "pure inhibitor" that is ONLY there to stop corrosion, THAT being the only thing I care about, and that being what causes the most damage. Almost all are glycol based - and even the ones who don't mention it - later on you find they are......... Anyway, that is what I have found. Many people believe "Glycol" = "corrosion inhibit" - which we were told isn't the case. It would seem that the "anti freeze" is the priority, the "corrosion" is the afterthought. So are we being given a "freeze" priority because we are a small market; and the people who make it = 90% of their customers have that "freeze" danger - so we just "end up with it?" I would love to hear others experiences with the above, as it has been a constant niggle with me. The final hurdle for me was the limited contact angle of belts........... The Triumph pump sat too far forward; although back then I had lofty ideals of keeping the engine driven fan. The Sonata was better - I got to about 98% with that............. SO EASY if Triumph just cast a WP mount into the front of the timing cover. (To hell with Saab!!!) I was going to attach anyway, but don't want to if no one interested. Anyway, have to reduce them - huge res. Ken H My issue with blown head gaskets on my Car has created lots of correspondence. Firstly I must apologise to those that wish to be removed from this forum, but for some reason I cannot delete names. I am still working on that. Prevention is better than cure. Google this product to get a full report. After 10 years of Stag ownership I am still learning. I have done an article on coolants for our club magazine OK just realised I have not finished part 2 There are a lot of things unknown at this stage about stag cooling systems and I am working on it now

Dave M.: A technical correction about the Holden cars you mention:), and a few observations and opinions of my own. HQ 350 V8 thermostat opening temperature was specified at 192 to 198 F which is 89 to 92 C, not 100 C. (see attached page from my original Holden published HQ workshop manual) The Camira was also likewise set at 92 C Camira cooling issues were more to do with A/C on at idle, where the electric cooling fans were under spec'd for flow (Camira had only electric fans) Engines are designed to run with coolant at those temps, (95 - 100 C), overheating of all older vehicles when they were new was invariably because the cooling system was under spec'd for radiator size or fan size at high ambient temperature. If a car overheats with a working 90 C thermostat, it will overheat with an 80 C thermostat, If the coolant won't stay at operating temperatures in an older car, there's a different problem to a thermostat set at 92 C, such as a stuck thermostat, poorly operating thermostat, air in the system, insufficient pressure in the system due to a leak, insufficient coolant, blocked / corroded radiator, corroded engine waterways with reduced flow, or poor heat transfer, or plain undersized radiator. Coolant observations: Glycol: *Pure glycol has poor heat transfer properties, as little as 2/3rds that of water alone, but a high boiling point. In a marginal cooling system like the Stag, the engine can get very hot and exceed design temperatures with no indication from the cooling system, as it won't boil or pressurize. *Glycol has very poor corrosion protection. *Pure glycol freezes at about -13 degrees C Water: *Water has excellent heat transfer properties, but has a lower boiling point than glycol. *Water has very poor corrosion protection. *Water freezes at 0 degrees C - but the fact that water expands when it freezes is the bigger problem, as in a car, it will crack blocks, heads and radiators if it freezes. Water / Glycol mix at 50/50: Pros *significantly improves anti freeze properties to about -37 degrees, *improves the operating temperature range as an effective coolant. A 50/50 mix water/glycol mix boils some 9 degrees C higher than pure water, (at 15psi.) This higher boil point helps protect against local hotspot boiling, and local cavitation. Cons *Heat transfer is about 86% that of pure water at 90 degrees. Additives: *Additives in the coolant give corrosion protection, critical in mixed metal engines like the Stag, where part is aluminium, and part cast iron, and part copper/brass. Cars with no copper or brass in the cooling system (like most modern cars) use different corrosion inhibitors, and typically these coolants are NOT green, mostly red or blue. Comments: *Glycol is not best for use by itself, despite some people like Evans selling it as such. (The high boiling point of glycol touted by these companies, whilst correct, does not make it a good coolant, as it also has poor heat transfer.) Supercars like Ferrari and Lamborghini still use 50/50 glycol, although they specify different corrosion inhibitors. *Race cars often use no glycol as some race tracks / regulations forbid it because of track risks when coolant leaks occur (glycol is slippery) * Penrite have a good overview of their coolants, with some additional info at: penriteoil.com.au/assets/pdf/tech/Nov2015/Coolants.pdf *Very high cooling demands are placed on the cooling system in the period immediately after slowing, or stopping, from a sustained run. At this time, heat which has been being rejected from the radiator due to the vehicle speed cannot be removed quickly, and local hotspots/boiling can occur. A suitably large electric cooling fan can help in this situation. As footnote, Stags MUST have a correct foot type thermostat fitted, as they have a bypass design, which directs coolant to the radiator when the thermostat is open, if there is no thermostat fitted, hot coolant simply circulates in the engine and doesn't get cooled. (Some information suggests there is an exception with some very early Mk 1s without a bypass hole in the intake manifold)

A Stag owner: All discussion on cooling stags is interesting and all inputs are welcome Currently I am working on part 2 of my articles on THE HEAT IS ON .I have been given a flow rate chart for different stag water pumps and that will help with calculations and a better understanding of the issues ( I HOPE )

Great info, and I agree with everything you have said. But can you see what I mean? In the wrong hands and with that cooling system just a little bit down, on a hot day that car could be ready to boil with the thermostat half open? It doesn't leave much leeway in Perth when it is 40 degrees outside. The Camira's actually went through some ups and downs. One batch recalled for the wrong rings - that gave them a bad rep. A family member worked for Holden all his life. They tried to help Camira owners with their aircons. Back then, aircon wasn't wide spread. If people don't use them, seals dry out (worse with early ones.) They put in the book "run every now and then" - still dramas. So on one model they wired up the aircon compressor so it would run when car in reverse. (They may have done that on one Torana model as well; though few aircons on them as option). Made sense - everyone runs car in reverse for a short time = seals looked after. Anyway, my point was that cooling systems in the 80's when we got our first high pressure/higher temp cooling systems; the average person was used to "enough water/she'll be right." We had never had cars that ran closer to boiling.......... and they mitigated that "run so close to boiling" with pressure and additives. If/when those cars found their way into the hands of people who were used to "just water/enough in there" who had a generation of red motors with huge top tanks........... it initially gave some problems. Remember; only one year warranty then, so not long before the "new" car found it's way into the hands of the "used to red motor" tweaker in many cases. Then the car gets a bad reputation before people evolve to the new technology. So my comments were really meant to convey "higher temps/system must be full to run at pressure." While that is obvious to some, that is what I was trying to convey. Maybe I am not very good at it. :-) Apologies. I agree with you that a lower stat can't make it cool better; just determines when it starts/should sit at. But my point is that around 82 I have more buffer before boiling than say 92. I like having that buffer even though I normally never need it. Concur with the bypass stat (foot) I learned that very quickly on a Volvo boat motor. Euro engines used them for years; but arrived later locally. I am in Perth, and it gets hot. The reason I shared my experiences with my car in what are the warmest temps people are likely to encounter are because MOST articles I see on Stags with problems lament "can't handle heat." Mine can/does easily. I am NOT worried about freezing, I don't need to. What I was trying to point out is "are we using a blanket/best for the whole world" approach (including antifreeze some of us don't need) when we could have something that just "cools". I thought a few points/comments may start a discussion that can help that.

I have been delving a bit and have spoken to my mate who I worked at the RCC with, re our cooling/glycol experience - and what other plant uses (ships/gensets etc.) I have also revisited a local inhibitor maker (40 years on) and been investigating class A (antifreeze) and class B (non antifreeze/just inhibitor) coolants. It is quite involved (as I thought, and honestly, it's me, so......... :-) ). What I will do is I will write a word doc over the next couple of weeks and attach. That way, those that don't want a long, involved e mail they aren't interested in can ignore. The few that want to get into it can open the attachment and read it, fair enough? Later I will write another spiel regarding my experience with fans (engine driven/elec), shrouds, airflow, etc.......... Again - as an attachment, so only read if interested. Meanwhile; I recently (a few months back) had had a gutful of oil pumps. (Again, "new" ones no good, had to use old ones.) I bought two 40 year old ones, made one good one out of two, (brilliant!!!!! and on the car now) found out that half the relief valve springs out there "aren't right" etc etc.... But what did piss me off was that stupid relief valve plug. It should have a lip seal, not an O ring. O rings are designed to be compressed in a housing or used in a tube on a moving shuttle valve. So if you install with oil (as designed) = can leak. So I did this (pic). Braze on a spring washer cut in half - lever it out in a second. :-) Works for me........